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Tweeting away... Photo by Bernardo Kastrup, hereby released in the Public Domain. |
This is a somewhat unusual post, but I suspect it can be very helpful in clarifying my formulation of Idealism and general metaphysical position. Maybe many of the questions discussed below are precisely the questions you have.
First, a brief intro. As you've probably noticed, I very recently joined twitter (@BernardoKastrup). A lot of the discussions I've faced there thus far have been with militant pseudo-skeptics and focused on posturing rather than understanding. But sometimes something of real value comes up, when someone makes all the right criticisms, asks all the right questions, and tackles all the right points. This has happened in the conversation I reproduce below, which I trust you will find interesting. Many thanks to @MichaelDavidLS for this sincere and productive exchange. (PS: I've re-ordered some of the tweets to bring structure to the dialogue and make for easier reading. In the original discussion, we went back-and-forth on some of the topics in a less structured manner.)
@BernardoKastrup But you say 'segments of consciousness unfold according to very strict patterns' (which we call the laws of physics) - yes?
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) July 31, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS Yes, certain processes in so-called "collective unconscious" unfold according to strict regularities: laws, archetypes, etc.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 1, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Lets try this again: there's a problem with 'Absolute Idealism' if needs a 'sector of ......
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins .....consciousness' that conform to strict patterns and regularities that obey the laws.....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins .....of physics. This is the only domain materialists (physicists) are bothered with and.....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins .....they call it 'physical reality'. Idealism must show how and why this domain is limited
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Materialism states the physical is outside consciousness and generates consciousness...
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Idealism states the physical is a modality of experience. The implications are different.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Idealism: death is de-clenching of consciousness. Materialism: death is end of consciousness.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Idealism: body is image of segment of psyche. Materialism: body is a mechanism outside mind.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Idealism: intuitions, emotions are primary, real. Materialism: they are secondary, 'unreal.'
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Yes I understand all that but 'practically' It's just a definitional difference. And then....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins No. Materialist physicists define physical reality as outside consciousness. I deny that.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins ....there's 'the fossil record'. Evidence of existence before consciousness even arose!
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Begging question. Idealism: biology is in consciousness, not consciousness in biology.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Consciousness precedes life. Life is image of localization (dissociation) of consciousness.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins See: https://t.co/sTviViTy4Z
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins I've seen this already- it's where the question came from - you describe what physicists....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins call physical reality and then attach non-falsifiable phenomena to it - their reaction is ...
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins ...obvious . It's getting very like claiming 'infinite inflation' preceds the big bang.....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins .....they can deem it to be so but it undermines their own contention of the big bang......
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins ...itself. Absolute Idealism must come up with falsifiable concepts if it is to gain ground..
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Falsifiability is for postulating new entities (spaghetti monster, matter outside mind)...
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Idealism postulates LESS entities. Its challenge is to provide sufficient explanatory power.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins .....and then explain the 'fossil record' of creatures existing before any 'consciousness'...
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins ....or you would need to say that pre-historic bugs 'caused the formation of the sun'....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins ....through their primitive awareness of 'externality'. Clearly they did not.
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Stop begging the question. Only materialism says that biology is required for consciousness.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Then without 'biology' what caused the 'segment of consciousness' of physical reality.....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins ....to come into being in the first place?
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Before life: reality was "dream" of one mind. Biology: dissociated segments of the one mind.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins So, 'In the beginning the 'one mind' dreamt (slowly) of stars and planets and then of .....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins .....prehistoric bugs which were 'dissociated' from the one mind' Is that about it?
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Yes, a non-lucid ("instinctual") dream, since self-reflection arises with biology...
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins An instinctual "dream" obeying patterns & regularities intrinsic to mind (i.e. laws of nature)
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Those regularities eventually lead to dissociation/localization of mind within dream (biology)
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins A 'non-lucid instinctual dream' that 'without reflection' caused suns and planets to come....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins ....into being and then billions of years later caused pre-historic bugs (single cells).....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins ....to come into being. Am I still on the right track?
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Pretty much. Notice: this all follows from the one notion that consciousness is fundamental.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins None of this entails postulating new, abstract or unprovable entities.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Except a primitive 'non reflective' field that somehow could 'cause' things to come into.....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins ....being that spontaneously obeyed rules of pattern propagation previously non existent.....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins No. Consciousness is empirical and undeniable, not a mathematical abstraction.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Consciousness is the most obvious and parsimonious ontological primitive there can ever be.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Come back to reality. U r born knowing consciousness, then u begin to hallucinate abstractions
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 2, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins .....how did it do that and why and how did it 'know' that it had done it?
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins How did the laws of physics arise and why and how did they 'know' they had done the universe?
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Maybe the laws of physics are simply what is. And they don't know _that_ they did anything.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Maybe consciousness is simply what is, and mind-at-large doesn't know _that_ it did anything.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Knowing _that_ you did something is self-reflection, it arises with localization/biology
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Exactly! what you describe is indistinguishable from the origins of physical reality that....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins ....science and especially physics is trying to understand - you just call it another name.
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins If what I say is true, it obviously has to be consistent with all empirical observations
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins BUT, the implications are completely different, as I tweeted before
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins e.g. under dealism death is not the end of consciousness, but a de-clenching
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins e.g. under idealism body is image of segment of our psyches, so integrative medicine works etc
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Maybe buy it's the concept of 'Absolute' Idealism that I challenge - consciousness emerged...
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins ....long after matter condensed. It's still there and doing great stuff but it emerged.
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Impossible to discuss Hegel on Twitter. Consciousness doesn't emerge because it is primary.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Lucid, self-reflective consciousness emerged long after matter condensed.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins But primary, non-lucid consciousness is what is; it didn't emerge, it always was.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Thats why Hegel (who I like a lot) is discredited these days. 'Deeming' it as primary.....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins ....does not make it so.
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Perhaps, but I argue that it is the most logical and parsimonious ontological primitive.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Again you're 'deeming' it to be so - this carries no weight. Anyone can 'deem' anything.
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins You can't escape the "deeming". Some physicists deem abstract, invisible branes to be primary.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins All you can do is make a logical, parsimonious choice for what you deem to be fundamental.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Consciousness is the OBVIOUS choice if you can explain all observations in terms of it.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins After all, it is the only carrier of reality anyone can ever know.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins I argue we can explain all on the basis of consciousness. Bonus: we avoid the "hard problem"
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Even if this is true what you say reduces to what science is saying. A field existed from....
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins ....which matter descended and then became somehow self reflective.
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Only from an operational perspective. Not from perspective of wider, important implications.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins For instance, NDEs, psi phenomena, mind-body medicine can all be accommodated under idealism.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Saying it appeared my magic does not avoid the hard problem of consciousness - it evades it.
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins The "hard problem" is artificially created by the delusion of ontological realism.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Cleaning up that mess is no evasion, just necessary correction of delusions.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins It is not answered by saying it is 'ontologically primative' - the problem is still there,HOW
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins How did the laws of physics arise? Where do branes come from? What is the quantum meta-field?
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins A (much) better worldview does not need to answer all questions to be better.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014
@BernardoKastrup @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins Again 'exactly' these are questions that need answers not just 'deeming' them to have arisen.
— Michael (@MichaelDavidLS) August 3, 2014
@MichaelDavidLS @DeepakChopra @RichardDawkins You're saying we need to answer all questions before we correct known and damaging delusions.
— Bernardo Kastrup (@BernardoKastrup) August 3, 2014